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The following text is the transcription of an interview to a young man
who was arrested
inside the Diaz school during the blitz by the police on the Saturday
evening
of
July 21 2001. You can find the audio document of this interview at the
following
web address:
http://gelma.lugbs.linux.it/genovag8/genovag8.html
A: The police about the blitz says that the school was full of black bloc people and when the police arrived there was throwing of stones and other objects from the windows. What can you say about that? B: Police says that some people with a knife tried to beat a policeman. Actually police arrived but nobody noticed. They were noticed just when they started to go in. When police arrives they should tell something like "this is police please give up". They didn't tell anything. They were like criminals coming very quietly and when somebody noticed them. People shouted "the police" and everybody already was in panic. Then police started to go inside the school. They were breaking the doors (they were not asking to open), the windows, the side-doors, shouting very aggressively, people were in panic, somebody was lying, somebody was running to the second floor. When the police was already inside, actually I haven't seen what was happening in the hall, I just heard people screaming. I heard these noises when the sticks hit bodies, all people screaming. I was standing near computers which actually were not in the hall. They were just a bit further, near the bathroom and I saw many policemen coming inside and two of them were coming in my direction and one of them started to smash computers with the stick and then I ran to the bathroom. A: What about the knife and the other actions, do you think it was possible a physical contact with the police? B: It is absolutely impossible because as I already said, they came quietly, nobody noticed them until they started running into the garden, so people were in panic, they didn't do anything against police, they were just in panic, trying to escape and I am sure that nobody was trying to confront any policeman. After I went to the bathroom there was one more girl and we just sit on the floor and a couple of policemen came. They were kicking us for a while. But I was really lucky, it was just a bit so. They kicked and went out and after like a minute some police came again and kicked again and shout me that I have to go out of the bathroom and I went out and there were many policemen staying there. We were walking with that girl between policemen lines and everybody was beating us with the sticks. A: I want to make a question about the things that police said they found inside the school. Police and also De Gennaro yesterday told there were a lot of sticks, few Molotovs, a lot of black clothes that indicated the presence of a lot of people from the black bloc inside the school. What can you say about that? B: About Molotov cocktails I haven't seen any of them and I am quite sure there were no Molotov cocktails. There is no reason to have them. Demonstrations were over, everybody was trying to rest until tomorrow morning. There was no arm prepared. In the other mobile I think police was looking. After I was taken from the bathroom to the hall the policemen were beating me while passing in this corridor and when I was in the hall I saw many people running from upstairs down and all the policemen everywhere were beating people and people were shouting and trying to cover their heads. Many people were bleeding, there was blood and everybody was beaten and lying down on the ground. The terror of police inside was incredible because people were beaten with the sticks in the head and in the face. One guy was beaten to the mouth and many eyeglasses broken. Police violence was really incredible, I think already most people know about broken arms and legs and so on. One really good fact I can tell to show how fascist were police: the friend of mine was lying not far away from me. He was lying down the face covering his head with arms and one policeman was beating him with the stick to the back and then one beat and then with a knife he was cutting his dreadlocks from the head and one beat, one dreadlock, one beat, one dreadlock. After that a friend said he looked one policeman passing and he saw these dreadlocks tight to the belt, you know like ancient Indians, these scalps, used like war trophy. After that police violence stopped when ambulance people started coming in, but before that many very horrible things happened, but I think that already almost anybody knows about this. After that ambulances came and started taking people away. Then police started to search and everybody was put to one place. So police started to search for things. For example I saw yesterday the newspaper in the police station and there was a photo about arms found in the school. There were so many of these helmets and gas-masks and when I saw in the hall carrying them away, I can't tell there was no helmet, maybe there were two or three helmets I saw, that's it. In the photo there were like 20 of them and these gas-masks and some sticks. A: You didn't see the sticks? B: I saw some sticks but they were wooden, or some other like garbage as the school was prepared for renovating. So there was some garbage inside, so it was some wooden and some small of metal. But not actually fighting sticks. A: And about the black bloc and the black clothes, was did you see? I mean they shaw on the TV and on the papers a lot of black clothes, saying it was full of people from the black bloc. B: I saw they were carrying some black clothes but it was like one plastic sack and they were putting black clothes from all the hall but there were so many luggage and it is a bit nonsense, I mean the police can come to any house and find like 10 black clothes. A: They were searching for black clothes? B: Yes, they were destroying these bags and putting out only the black things, putting them in one place. There were many luggage and from each luggage they were taking for example one black cloth, there was not so many really. There were not so many people from them. There was some who could look like a black bloc, but maybe just wearing black. But those were less than half. The rest of the people were like anybody looks like. A: After this, where did they take you to? To jail? B: At first we were taken to the police station, it was like a Carabinieri station. We were divided into groups of eight people and taken with the vans there. First of all, nobody was told why we were arrested, where we were going. The only thing the police said was they were picking the passports, so everybody should give the passport and all these passports are gone now. Many people do not have the passports and I am not having it too. I gave my passport to the police officer and my passport is gone now. A: You were beaten when you arrived at the police station? What happened? B: We arrived, we got off the vans and first of all somebody came to us and said in English "this is a military zone, if you will do any move without us telling you, you are gonna be shot". All the way in the school, in the van, at the police station, always we had to put our hands in the air. When we arrived we were near the wall, hands in the air, police were searching us, we were eight people and many of them were beaten, while searching. A: You were beaten too? B: Yes but not so strong, I was not beaten with the stick, when they start to search in my trousers they wanted to put the belt off and I moved my head a bit and they hit my head for that move. They were breaking things, not actually searching but just tearing clothes and hit bags. For example they found the mobile phone in my pocket and as soon as they got it off they smashed it to the ground and smashed it with the foot. We were beaten and standing there for half an hour outside hands up. Then we were taken inside to the cells and then again everybody was standing hands up. There were people already tired and shocked and everybody who was trying to move hands a bit down, the police came. A: This inside the cells? B: Yes, inside the cells. A: You were forced, obliged to... B: Yes, everybody was on the wall hands up again. We were with raised hands for three hours, it was incredible. And if you just moved, they came and beat you, not with the sticks, but with the hands. We were standing, and you know, it was such a shock that every moment you can be beaten. And police were walking and making such a cruel joke like: "Black bloc... black heads". I do not know Italian. For example the people when they were beaten, the police were shouting something and foreign people like me and from Germany do not understand and asked "please in English" and nobody was translating and still shouting something in Italian and beating. You do not know what they want and they shout to you. A: Talking about that, do you remember (or maybe you could understand) if there were fascistic statements made from the police? The papers talk about hymns to Pinochet or against Jews, something like that happening inside the jails. I do not know if you could understand anything, not only fascistic acts but also in what they said. B: Actually I do not understand Italian, they were talking about many things. But what I understood, there was really bad attitude to Polish people, like when they were going around, when everybody was standing and asking "from where are you?". If you where Italian they tell you nothing and attitude to people from somewhere else was "uhm... ah!, Polacchi" and I understood that they were talking to each other that the black bloc is mostly from German and Polish people. A: Do you think it is a racist and fascist point of view? B: Maybe I can not tell about small things, but the whole view in this police station was real fascistic situation. Boys and girls divided, nobody was allowed to speak, stand absolutely controlled. All looked like a fascist movie. I just could not believe that it is year 2001 and Europe and it is a democracy. I was really shocked. That is incredible. When the police saw that people could not hold the hands, the hands were falling, we were so tired. And then they let everybody for a minute hands down and after a minute up again standing. It was for one hour then let people sit for a minute and again stand up in a row. A: Where they happy or laughing? B: Yes. For example they said "sit down everybody" and then "ah, ah! Get up! Get up!". We were treated like really big criminals: the belts, the shoe ties were taken off. If a person wanted to go to the bathroom, the carabiniere take the neck and they were walking all the way down to the toilet holding very tight to the neck. All the night it was the same. A: This was Sunday night? How long did you stay in the police station? B: Saturday. A: You were taken Saturday? B: Yes, Saturday night and the night was really stressful. A: Did someone sleep? B: No, at night we were not allowed. After standing, we were allowed to sit, but nobody was allowed to lay down. People were falling asleep and police came and "stand up! Stand up! No laying, no talking". After that, one night, one day and then a bit of the next night. So till Sunday people were given as food just water and for one man just two really small cakes. In the morning and in the afternoon one sandwich for two people. The sandwich was with meat and as there were many vegetarians, for all day they had just a piece of bread and water. A: What did they tell you? You were taken somewhere? Which were your accusations? B: All the time we were arrested some people were asking for the lawyers and they were asking what is going on, and where are we and where are we going. No question was answered through all the night and all the day. Only in the night between Sunday and Monday everybody was taken from the cells and they took our fingerprints, informations, took many photos, took off earrings, searched all the body. Monday morning we were told (we were very tired) that we were going to jail. A: Also the Italian people made questions? B: Yes, yes. A: And they answered to anybody? B: No, to nobody. There was an Italian guy asking to the carabinieri what was going on. It was also nothing, nothing, nothing. A: On Monday what happened? Did you stay there until Monday? B: No, that night between Sunday and Monday, early in the morning, it was 3 o'clock, two by two everybody was taken to a bus with these small cells with the bars. We were told we were going to jail and that's it. Nobody was allowed to call a lawyer. We just took the bus and to the jail it was about one hour and a half of way and nobody was knowing where we were going and what was the situation. A: Did you know where you arrived? B: No, you could not see anything through the bars and the bus was going. When we arrived nobody was told. I found out where I was when I was already in the cell. I found an envelope of an ex-prisoner and on the envelope there was written the address of the prison, Pavia. That's how I found where I am. A: Did they beat you during the travel to Pavia or at your arrival? B: No, in prison I was not beaten. A: Do you know of other people beaten? B: I think that nobody was really strongly just that. But the attitude of the police was also very hard. It was always "come on, come on, this way". You just do not understand where to go. And I was going upstairs and I think I lost the way, I turned not right, it was very dark, there was police in the dark, I was going in that direction and then I felt "Tch!". From the dark they beat my head because I chose not the right way. I should go straight and then turn to the left. About jail, the troubles with the food especially vegetarians: for the first day it was only bread because everything was with meat but then it was better. Actually in prison it was OK, just you do not know anything, the only thing I was told when some guy came, but it was not in the first day in jail, but on the second day. One guy told me in very hard English that law in Italy is that they can keep me in jail without giving me charges for 5 days, and I said, "Oh shit!". A: Were you able to speak with other people in prison? Were you alone? B: Yes. When we arrived we were also taken to body-search and after that they put us one by one into the cells. I was two days alone and after that we moved by two people. For two days I was alone and nobody talked to me and I was asking for a lawyer, even a call to let somebody know I was there. I was not allowed to do anything. Staying alone I was driving crazy. A: Before, when we were speaking you told me that in your country police told to your family that you were a criminal, and that you could have killed a policeman or stuff like that. Can you explain this? B: I am not absolutely sure about this but my father told me when I called him that he was given information that I was quoted like a really serious criminal and that there is a videotape showing me with I do not know what kind of arm, but he said with some arm trying to confront policemen or something. Really hard criminal situation, that was what they told him. A: After jail what happened? B: After jail it was court and there was a lawyer, but I saw the lawyer only when I came already to the judge. A: After two days that you were there? B: Yes, just one hour before they took me away. I talked to the judge and then I was waiting for half an hour. Then she said that I am not guilty and that I'm gonna be immediately released. A: What did the judge ask you? B: The judge was a pretty kind woman and the only thing was she read me the police report. The charges was that the school was full of black bloc people and that we were fighting police and I was told all the stuff that you can read in newspapers too. A: So you told her this was not true? B: Yes, and then she asked me what happened in the school, I told everything that I saw. A: It is important that you can say that there was no beating between people in the school. It is important because the police are saying they had to do what they did because people responded with violence. You can say that it is absolutely false? B: Yes. A: You told me that this judge said that the accusations against you were that you were involved in the aggression against a policeman inside the school. B: That's right. A: So, did you aggress anyone inside the school? That's more important did you see anyone making aggressions against the police? I am asking this because now the police in Italy is saying what they did, the violence in the school by the police was only a response to an aggression made from people inside. B: I can tell one more time that it was no need to do any action of police like they did because there was nothing against police, absolutely nothing. They did not ask us anything, they did not ask to give up or to go out or to lay down. They just came and beat us. I was not doing anything against policemen and I am hundred per cent sure that nobody was. There was such a panic, people were just trying to hide their heads. Everybody was with closed eyes and hands or arms on the head trying to defend and police was just shouting something and beating people. I am sure that nobody did nothing against police. Defend, that's what I saw. It is something against police to defend your face with the arms from the beat of the sticks? A: After speaking to the judge what happened? B: There were some questions and I answered to that. They were asking me what happened in the school and I told her all the truth the same I say now. Then it was as I said in half an hour I will know what is the decision and I was told that I am not guilty and that I will be immediately released. So after all that stuff like fingerprint and many papers, I did not know anything where I am going and the passport was missing and money was missing. I was taken to the police station after this, there was also some bureaucracy like making documents. After the police station I was taken to airport to Milan without passport and without money. Even police knew there were no flights from Milan to my country, and I was dropped. I was told I can not stay in Italy and I cannot come for five years, I am "persona non grata" for five years. A: When did you think for the first time that everything could be finished and you could be free? B: Just when the judge said that I am not guilty. Till that time it was, I mean, what I saw in the school I thought it is really possible situation that if police was so fascistic in the police station and in the jail that they can tell they found the sticks, these sticks belong to me and with the stick I beat a policeman in the street and because of that I can be put to jail for one year. I really thought that was possible and that was driving me crazy. Those were the most scareful things, because I thought that it was possible. A: Do you think this now? they could have done? B: Now I see that things are all right and many people know, things are getting better because many people got interested about this and media and all that. Then I thought that if nobody knows about me, I was not allowed to call, so maybe nobody knows about me, my parents. I thought they gonna accuse me and I'll go to jail for one year. I thought it was really possible. A: Did you have the impression of illegality of what happened during these days from Saturday to Monday? Could you see some kind of contrast between the judges and the police? The police did something that judges would not have allowed? B: There was a total difference. When I saw the judge and the lawyers it was a small room. Judge and some assistant, then translator Italian-English and then lawyer and there was totally different atmosphere in the room, I felt like a man, they said what my rights. I had right to not answer, they treated me like a normal man. What happened in the school and in the police station before, it was incredible, all human rights were totally ignored. Every human has the right to know what's going on at least if police is beating him or arresting him. They have to tell what's the reason, why. And nobody was told. The police, especially carabinieri they were not democratic, and no respect of human rights. A: Is it possible something like this in your country? B: In my country it is a bit sad situation with the jails because of economic situation. The government has no money. But about human rights, if you are arrested, no. A: Do you think that in your country could have happened something like you saw these days in Italy? B: I am not from a G8 country, as Italy is, but still I am from a democratic country and there have never been in my country such things and I do not think that it will happen, police so obviously ignoring human rights. I mean very obviously. Not in my country. A: There were other people with you in jail and at the police station, lot of them were wounded. We could see that with our eyes. Do you think that you and other people were left and taken to the airport or to the border very fast to not be seen by the people or the journalists? B: I think that is obvious because to pay for such a big group of people and they are paying money for the tickets to Britain and Germany and other places. They do not have any reason to do that as everybody has to come back on his own. It obvious that they want to shut this thing very quickly without showing anything. I think the police and the government, they understand that they are in really deep shit about this. They were trying to close it. A: Now you are a "persona non grata" for Italy. This paper we do not think it is totally legal, but I am not sure. For this reason you will not be allowed to return for five years to Italy. If you could return after five years, or before if you can change these things, would you like to return? Would you like to come to demonstrate in Italy? Do you think Italy is a country where you can demonstrate pacifically? B: Now I have the feeling that Italy in not a safe country to do a demonstration, but I would like to mention that I do not think that Italy is a bad country as I really see that there is not only police in Italy. There are really many good people and people who helped while I was in jail and there are really anti-fascistic movements, anti-capitalistic and so on. If I had the chance to go to one more demonstration, I will go because what police did obviously was to scare the people from go and stand up for their rights. The only reason was to scare people and to let everybody know that such things happen and try to frighten everybody. I am not afraid and if I have got the chance I will go one more time and if I get arrested, I get arrested. But it is my right to go and tell what I want and they are ignoring my rights. I think that some day they should be stopped.
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